Thucydides on strength and justice in the melian and mytilenian. This has a bearing on the question of whether thucydides could have. What happens when a democracy tries to be an imperial power. Thucydides had earlier treated the same topic in the debate of war between corcyra and corinth back in book i, but it is the melian dialogue that is most famous. Immediately download the melian dialogue summary, chapterbychapter analysis, book notes, essays, quotes, character descriptions, lesson plans, and more everything you need for studying or teaching melian dialogue. Cleon, a prominent member of athenian society, spoke to defend the previous decision against doubts and to. In 416, during the interlude in the peloponnesian war known as the peace of nicias, the athenians decided to attack melos, a colony of sparta which had. Going by sea to pyrrha, and from thence overland, he passed along the bed of a torrent, where the line of circumvallation was passable, and thus entering unperceived into mitylene told the magistrates that attica would certainly. Do you agree with the analysis in the melian dialogue about the relationship between strong and weak states, and between power and morality david greer thucydides can be seen as the first great historian, and his history of the peloponnesian war is said to be the catalyst of the realist tradition. The melian dialogue specifically displays how little regard the athenian thesis shows for justice. The dialectical logic of thucydides melian dialogue by. The history of the peloponnesian war by thucydides.
Immediately following the melian dialogue, thucydides introduces the sicilian expedition, which he calls the greatest exercise of athenian might but which was also the greatest debacle in athenian history. Melos is an island in the aegean sea roughly 110 km east of mainland greece. Thucydides on power and justice city university of new york. Thucydides clearly suggests through the dialogue that the brutality imperialist policy pursued by athens carries the seeds of its own destruction. In particular, it dealt with the contradictions inherent in a democracy that also ruled an empire, and in the rise of demagogues in a democratic state. Thucydides questions and answers discover the community of teachers, mentors and students just like you that can answer any question you might have on thucydides.
In the history of the peloponnesian war, thucydides filters the historical narrative of the peloponnesian conflict through a critical perspective. They comment on how the audience may react to speeches and what motivations the other speaker. Jun 28, 2015 democracy on melos june 28, 2015 by nevillemorley one aspect of the melian dialogue that is mentioned relatively rarely is the fact that the exchange of views between the athenians and the representatives of the melians takes place in private at the request of the latter. After detailing the armed conflict between the athenians and the spartans and their respective allies between. Once the terms of the debate and the subject of the debate have been settled upon, after earlier agreement on what the form of the debate is going to be, we come to the melian dialogue proper. You are already preparing for war, and it doesnt really seem to matter what we say because you are the judges.
First it will be shown at the debate at spartan and the declaration of war that athens did not attain its empire though military might. Thucydides description of the peloponnesian war 1557. The mytilenian debate in the athenian assembly concerned reprisals against the citystate of. In this video, we will explore the encounter between the political realism of athens and the political idealism of melos through the melian dialogue found in thucydides historical account of the. Mytilene, a former athenian ally, had revolted against athenian oppression but lost in a fight against the athenian army. What was the mytilenian debate, and does it have any. Thucydides reports in his history what was said in the debate between the athenian ambassadors and the melian leaders. Introduction to ancient greece final flashcards quizlet. C thucydides reports it in book three of his history of the peloponnesian war, and uses the events and. It shows that the athenians, who had made one attempt on melos in 427 under nicias, still wanted to round off their aegean empire irrespective of the dorian ancestry of melos.
It is common for him to reveal much of his own opinion through the lines of characters, especially. Apr 09, 2012 in thucydides account of the mytilenian debate, the citizens of athens are discussing whether they should put to death all mytilenian men and enslave all women and children. In the end melos doesnt agree to pay the tribute and to be an ally with athens so athens takes over melos, kills all the men, and sells all the. Are there compromises to be made in how a democracy treats others. Though the melian dialogue is an interesting and important goround between the melians and the athenians, i found the mytilenian debate to be much more engaging.
The melian dialogue is almost universally read because of its treatment of realism. Molly wancewicz rice university thucydides history of the peloponnesian war provides incisive historical analysis of the clash between the athenian and spartan alliances during the fifth century bce. This third level of discussion proceeds as a structure disputation, formal dialectics. In book iii of his history of the peloponnesian war, thucydides records the the mytilenian debate, an event that occurred in 427 bc, roughly a. The siege of melos occurred in 416 bc during the peloponnesian war, fought between athens and sparta. History of the peloponnesian war american university of.
Notice that thucydides again uses placement of accounts to. In fact no passage in thucydides, including the melian dialogue, raises starker questions about the status of political justice. In 416 bc, the athenians tried to get the people of the island of melos to join their side in their war with sparta. This will now be illustrated through the same extracts use in the preceding chapter, with the addition of the melian dialogue, but focusing specifically on the athenian discourse. This dialogue deliberately recalls the earlier debate, but it is less nuanced than the mytilenean arguments might is right is the brutal but unanswerable trump card of the athenian case the strong do. In thucydides account of the mytilenian debate, the citizens of athens are discussing whether they should put to death all mytilenian men and enslave all women and children. Apr 19, 2012 there are various elements of his history which are very worthy of note. The structure and function of the melian dialogue the journal of. However, using this structure allows him to clearly delineate the athenian points and the corresponding counterpoints. The mytilenians appealed to athens enemy, sparta, for help, but the spartans lacked control of.
In book iii of his history of the peloponnesian war, thucydides records the the mytilenian debate, an event that occurred in 427 bc, roughly a year after the revolt against athens and its. Mytilenian debate v melian dialogue mytilenian debate. Melian dialogue essay david browns digital portfolio. The melian dialogue is an excerpt from thucydides history of the peloponnesian war between the powerful athenian empire and the tiny island state of melos. The mytilenian debate in 428, the mytilenians revolted against athens, even though they had enjoyed privileged status in the athenian empire. The melian dialogue presents the usual thucydidean concentration of speech and thought. Ancient studies history unit 4 study guide thucydides and the peloponnesian war. Study guide know the main arguments in the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue. Given the nature of political debate, it is unlikely that the melian dialogue was as clean and backandforth a process as thucydides describes. Not only is the form of the debate vigorous i couldnt help but think that the audience was saying the ancient greek equivalent of, snap, yo.
The melian debate and the sicilian debate mark the turning point in athenian policy garst, 1989, p. The melian dialogue by thucydides is a classic that describes the overpowering classical realist view on international politics. One central piece to this discourse is the melian dialogue, a debate. Final study guide study guide inr 4103 final exam 1 know. Jun 12, 2017 thucydidess history of the peloponnesian war breaks off before the story is over. The melian dialogue thucydides see pages 103 and following of the athens manual here describes a conversation set during the peloponnesian war. A second debate, which thucydides called the mytilenian debate, took place in order to reassess the course of action that should be taken. Thucydides did not witness the negotiations and in fact had been in exile at the time, so this dialogue. The mytilenians appealed to athens enemy, sparta, for help, but the spartans lacked control of the sea and so were unable to help. To the fairness of quietly instructing each other as you propose there is nothing to object. The debate did not really occurthe arguments given by each side were of thucydides own creation. Thucydides debate is framed in absolute terms, as if there were no read more. Pdf thucydides voice in the melian dialogue jessica. Read the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue on blackboard as well as the west in question 4 section 3.
The structure and function of the melian dialogue 75 means,6 and this was hindered by actions like the destruction of melos. One aspect of the melian dialogue that is mentioned relatively rarely is the fact that the exchange of views between the athenians and the representatives of the melians takes place in private at the request of the latter. C thucydides reports it in book three of his history of the peloponnesian war, and uses the events and the. How can people in the melians position bargain well. By comparing the singleton dialogue, the melian dialogue, with another moment in the same author, the equally famous mytilenian debate, i hope to show that. Mytilene, a former athenian ally, had revolted against athenian oppression but lost in a. Cleon v diodotus, about some members of the city of mytilene revolting, debate whether to put all males to death and enslave female, height of difference bt sparta and athens b3hinge of pelp. Thucydides, history of the peloponnesian war my work is not a piece of writing designed to meet the taste of an immediate public, but was done to last forever. In their speeches, cleon and diodotus each comment on the debate they are having. Melian dialogue in 416 bce, the athenians, deeming it expedient to conquer the island of melos though they had no quarrel with melos. This may be contrasted with the later melian dialoguewhere athens killed all the men. Although not all athenians agree with the athenian thesis as proposed at sparta and melos, it is still an important theme in the peloponnesian war.
Written four hundred years before the birth of christ, this detailed contemporary account of the struggle between athens and sparta stands an excellent chance of fulfilling the authors ambitious claim that the work was done to last forever. Towards the close of the same winter, salaethus, a lacedaemonian, was sent out in a galley from lacedaemon to mitylene. Going by sea to pyrrha, and from thence overland, he passed along the bed of a torrent, where the line of circumvallation was passable, and thus entering unperceived into. A modern reenactment of the negotiations between the athenians and the melians as reconstructed by thucydides, the ancient greek historian of. Mar 12, 20 in book iii of his history of the peloponnesian war, thucydides records the the mytilenian debate, an event that occurred in 427 bc, roughly a year after the revolt against athens and its. Mytilenians revolted against dalian league and thus it. In the mytilenean debate, cleon sounds surprisingly like thomas schelling when he argues that the athenian. This concentration contrasts with the herodotean and the earlier platonic dialogues, in both of which even discussions of a deep philosophic meaning stay closer to the easy colloquialism of everyday language. Pdf thucydides voice in the melian dialogue jessica garcia. The debate consisted of varying opinions, the first of which was presented by cleon of athens. The melian dialogue is a conversation where athens uses rhetoric the art of persuasive speaking and argues the point of physis survival of the fittest to persuade melos into paying the tribute. Written four hundred years before the birth of christ, this detailed. Analysis of the mytilenian debate english literature essay.
This change is furthered with the melian dialogue where the athenians no longer. Notice that thucydides again uses placement of accounts to comment ironically. The mytilenian debate also spelled mytilenean debate or mytilenaean debate in the athenian assembly concerned reprisals against the citystate of mytilene, which had attempted unsuccessfully to shake off athenian hegemony, during the peloponnesian war. When in the mytilenian debate athens struggles over a decision to kill all the men and enslave women and children, christian reussmit argues, this represents the moral fracture of athens and as they struggle and ultimately decide not to carry out the plan it becomes clear that. Sample solution the post the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue appeared. History of the peloponnesian war translated by rex warner with an introduction and notes by m. Mytilene debate and the melian dialogue comparison essay sample. Mytilene debate and the melian dialogue comparison essay. Why, according to dante alighieri, would a world government need to be a monarchy.
Thucydidess history of the peloponnesian war breaks off before the story is over. The following debate called the mitylenian debate by thucydidestook place between cleon and diodotus and addressed key political issues raised by the peloponnesian war. Monday 1026 thucydides recreates the debate in athens in 427 bc over how to deal with rebellious former allies in. The powerful athenian generals and their fleet of 38 ships carrying heavy infantry and archers waited at the shores of melos ready for action as the melians deliberated. May 12, 2015 in this video, we will explore the encounter between the political realism of athens and the political idealism of melos through the melian dialogue found in thucydides historical account of the. Apr 22, 2010 a modern reenactment of the negotiations between the athenians and the melians as reconstructed by thucydides, the ancient greek historian of the peloponnesian war taken from the war that never. Through his depiction of the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue, thucydides analyzes prioritization of selfinterest, and more specifically, the idea that might makes right. There is, however, much more to his speech than meets the eye.
The mytilenian debate is the first to show the change in athenian discourse. The athenians explain that power dynamics dominate the dialogue, whereas the melians appeal to logic, reason and morality. What were the three virtuous and three vicious corrupt forms of government according to aristotle. Thucydideshistory of the peloponnesian war provides incisive historical analysis of the 5thcentury bc clash between the athenian and spartan alliances. History of the peloponnesian war american university of beirut. In a previous debate, the athenians already decided continue reading the mytilenian debate. Their policy became a policy of coercion limitless expansion. In history of the peloponnesian war book 5, chapters 84116, the contemporary athenian historian thucydides included a dramatization of the negotiations between the athenian emissaries and the rulers of melos. For it proves misleading to say that he is arguing merely from interestand then, on a deeper level, to say that he is arguing from justice. Mar 14, 20 the mytilenian debate thucydides 1972, pp. Ancient studies history unit 4 study guide thucydides. There are various elements of his history which are very worthy of note. Know the main arguments in the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue.
Friday 1023 thucydides recreates pericles speech in 429 bc after the athenian people started to turn against the war and against pericles decision to retreat behind the walls and fight at sea. Explain the stoic conception of concentric circles of obligation. An analysis of thucydides views on the melian dialogue the melian dialogue is a debate between melian and athenian representatives concerning the sovereignty of melos. Thucydides on strength and justice in the melian and.
Lets not make long speeches, lets get straight to the point. M i finley a translation of thucydides history of the wars between athens and sparta with introduction, notes, bibliography, and maps. Though the melians had ancestral ties to sparta, they chose to remain neutral in the war. Why is this a dialogue rather than a debate as in the mytilenian debate above, book iii. Thucydides mytilenian debate cleon diodotus rhetoric. In this dialogue between the athenians and the melians, the athenians have come to this island to take over the melians. Essay on an analysis of thucydides views on the melian dialogue. I couldnt possibly add anything to spencer alexander mcdaniels answer in regards to what is the mytilenian debate, but since ive been repeatedly asked to answer ill do my best to share my thoughts on its relevance to brexit. This belief, specifically explained at sparta and melos, is the athenian thesis.
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